LIVE REPORTS
12.20pm: Ram warns that chemist guidelines should be followed and a copy should be made available to the defence.
The effect of not giving the guidelines will result in people being convicted of murder or other crimes just because the department does not want to give the guidelines or they (chemists) do not follow them, he adds.
12.12pm: Ram notes that what the HKL doctors had labelled on the sample is different.
This is because DSP Jude had relabelled them when he cut open the big plastic bag containing the HKL samples at his office.
Justice Abdull Hamid asks based on (chemist) Seah's analysis and what the HKL doctors testified that there could be penetration, could it have been heresay evidence.
Ram agrees.
This reinforces what we say that they cannot be the same samples, as Saiful was not sodomised, adds the lawyer.
12.07pm: Hence, Ram says there is the question whether actual penetration took place.
At this point, DAP's Kepong MP Dr Tan Seng Giaw walks into the courtroom, approaches the dock and shakes hand with Anwar before taking his seat.
12 noon: Now, Ram submits on the issue of penetration.
He says there is no medical evidence to suggest previous encounters.
He (Shafee) was just giving a statement from the bar, says the defence lawyer.
"Previous encounter should not be taken into consideration that penetration did take place," he adds.
What is important, he says, is that four doctors (one from Pusrawi) and three from HKL said there was no penetration.
Shafee had pointed to Saiful's testimony that Anwar ejaculated inside his anus "as always".
11.52am: Ram says what is shocking is that the prosecutor asked Anwar to take his own DNA sample to prove his defence.
He argues that it is for the prosecution to prove its case beyond reasonable doubt and not put the burden on the defence.
"This is basic law, as it is incumbent for the prosecution to prove its case," he adds.
Shafee had suggested on Tuesday that Anwar take his DNA sample at an international DNA centre to prove he is not involved.
11.13am: Justice Arifin calls for short break. Hearing to continue at 11.30am.
11.05am: Ram says there is no doubt the prosecution concedes there is degradation in the samples and there is no degradation on the intimate swab.
Ram questions how could the sample be in pristine condition when they are not stored in the freezer as recommended.
He says this shows that the sample is not the same sample and could have been compromised.
The point which the prosecution missed is that there must be degradation following the samples are taken after 56 hours and not kept in the required submission.
11am: He says that the defence does not dispute that DNA can be retained for thousands of years as with dinosaurs, which is well documented.
"But what is in question is that this sample is not found in the dinosaur’s anus," he adds.
10.56am: Ram says degradation is a major concern in this case.
"The sample is expected to deteriorate and Seah (the chemist) agreed.
"Seah's evidence is unreliable, first she says the sample showed no signs of degradation but when asked further she agreed it should show signs," he says.
10.43am: Justice Suriyadi asks if the 18 allele is foreign that does not extinguish the presence of Anwar in those samples i.e. from the lock-up and Saiful but Ram emphasised that what it can also mean is that Anwar was not even there (in the condominium).
Ram says the chemist Seah (right) also agreed there was no degradation in the sample although it was taken after 56 hours.
He points out that she did not use the word "pristine" but agreed there was no degradation in the samples.
However, he adds, she agrees degradation will happen.
10.30am: Ram says there cannot be speculation and assumption.
He says the contamination or the conclusion that one can infer is that the samples had been compromised.
10.20am: Ram says the 18 allele appeared on the Good Morning towel, toothbrush and mineral water bottle.
He adds that a re-amplification should be done to explain the presence of the 18 allele.
This is similar to the Teoh Beng Hock case where a foreign allele was found on the deceased’s belt.
Ram emphasised it is for the prosecution to explain why there is the presence of the 18 allele.
"It also appeared in the B9 high rectal swab and the lock-up from the Good Morning towel".
Prosecution explained that it probably came from Pusrawi Hospital’s Dr Mohd Osman Abdul Hamid (right) but there is no evidence for this.
Ram argues that the prosecution cannot say it is Dr Osman but can term it as probable.
"But the 18 allele also appeared in the lock-up. Did Dr Osman go to the lock-up. This shows the said samples must come from a third party," Ram says.
He says the link to Dr Osman cannot be proven and it is dangerous to speculate.
"There is no evidence to support the prosecution's argument. The burden is on the prosecution to prove the case beyond reasonable doubt," he adds.
10.10am: Defence lawyer Ram Karpal refers to the "Good Morning" towel and there is also the presence of an 18 allele.
The chemist (Nor Aidora Saedon) says the 18 allele is a stutter.
"However, based on the Chemistry Department guidelines the 18 allele is not a stutter, and it should be reported.”
Reading from Nor Aidora's testimony, the chemist later agreed that she went against her own guidelines.
"Had the Chemistry Department follow the guidelines, we would have a report of contamination.
"There can be no doubt the presence of a contaminor in the alleged 18 allele cannot be denied."
12.20pm: Ram warns that chemist guidelines should be followed and a copy should be made available to the defence.
The effect of not giving the guidelines will result in people being convicted of murder or other crimes just because the department does not want to give the guidelines or they (chemists) do not follow them, he adds.
12.12pm: Ram notes that what the HKL doctors had labelled on the sample is different.
This is because DSP Jude had relabelled them when he cut open the big plastic bag containing the HKL samples at his office.
Justice Abdull Hamid asks based on (chemist) Seah's analysis and what the HKL doctors testified that there could be penetration, could it have been heresay evidence.
Ram agrees.
This reinforces what we say that they cannot be the same samples, as Saiful was not sodomised, adds the lawyer.
12.07pm: Hence, Ram says there is the question whether actual penetration took place.
At this point, DAP's Kepong MP Dr Tan Seng Giaw walks into the courtroom, approaches the dock and shakes hand with Anwar before taking his seat.
12 noon: Now, Ram submits on the issue of penetration.
He says there is no medical evidence to suggest previous encounters.
He (Shafee) was just giving a statement from the bar, says the defence lawyer.
"Previous encounter should not be taken into consideration that penetration did take place," he adds.
What is important, he says, is that four doctors (one from Pusrawi) and three from HKL said there was no penetration.
Shafee had pointed to Saiful's testimony that Anwar ejaculated inside his anus "as always".
11.52am: Ram says what is shocking is that the prosecutor asked Anwar to take his own DNA sample to prove his defence.
He argues that it is for the prosecution to prove its case beyond reasonable doubt and not put the burden on the defence.
"This is basic law, as it is incumbent for the prosecution to prove its case," he adds.
Shafee had suggested on Tuesday that Anwar take his DNA sample at an international DNA centre to prove he is not involved.
11.13am: Justice Arifin calls for short break. Hearing to continue at 11.30am.
11.05am: Ram says there is no doubt the prosecution concedes there is degradation in the samples and there is no degradation on the intimate swab.
Ram questions how could the sample be in pristine condition when they are not stored in the freezer as recommended.
He says this shows that the sample is not the same sample and could have been compromised.
The point which the prosecution missed is that there must be degradation following the samples are taken after 56 hours and not kept in the required submission.
11am: He says that the defence does not dispute that DNA can be retained for thousands of years as with dinosaurs, which is well documented.
"But what is in question is that this sample is not found in the dinosaur’s anus," he adds.
10.56am: Ram says degradation is a major concern in this case.
"The sample is expected to deteriorate and Seah (the chemist) agreed.
"Seah's evidence is unreliable, first she says the sample showed no signs of degradation but when asked further she agreed it should show signs," he says.
10.43am: Justice Suriyadi asks if the 18 allele is foreign that does not extinguish the presence of Anwar in those samples i.e. from the lock-up and Saiful but Ram emphasised that what it can also mean is that Anwar was not even there (in the condominium).
Ram says the chemist Seah (right) also agreed there was no degradation in the sample although it was taken after 56 hours.He points out that she did not use the word "pristine" but agreed there was no degradation in the samples.
However, he adds, she agrees degradation will happen.
10.30am: Ram says there cannot be speculation and assumption.
He says the contamination or the conclusion that one can infer is that the samples had been compromised.
10.20am: Ram says the 18 allele appeared on the Good Morning towel, toothbrush and mineral water bottle.
He adds that a re-amplification should be done to explain the presence of the 18 allele.
This is similar to the Teoh Beng Hock case where a foreign allele was found on the deceased’s belt.
Ram emphasised it is for the prosecution to explain why there is the presence of the 18 allele.
"It also appeared in the B9 high rectal swab and the lock-up from the Good Morning towel".Prosecution explained that it probably came from Pusrawi Hospital’s Dr Mohd Osman Abdul Hamid (right) but there is no evidence for this.
Ram argues that the prosecution cannot say it is Dr Osman but can term it as probable.
"But the 18 allele also appeared in the lock-up. Did Dr Osman go to the lock-up. This shows the said samples must come from a third party," Ram says.
He says the link to Dr Osman cannot be proven and it is dangerous to speculate.
"There is no evidence to support the prosecution's argument. The burden is on the prosecution to prove the case beyond reasonable doubt," he adds.
10.10am: Defence lawyer Ram Karpal refers to the "Good Morning" towel and there is also the presence of an 18 allele.
The chemist (Nor Aidora Saedon) says the 18 allele is a stutter.
"However, based on the Chemistry Department guidelines the 18 allele is not a stutter, and it should be reported.”
Reading from Nor Aidora's testimony, the chemist later agreed that she went against her own guidelines."Had the Chemistry Department follow the guidelines, we would have a report of contamination.
"There can be no doubt the presence of a contaminor in the alleged 18 allele cannot be denied."
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